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David Powell, wine maker at Torbreck, discusses the differences between Syrah and Shiraz. He also puts his somewhat expensive (yet well-made) wines in perspective with the rest of the fine wine world.
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Mike Supple: You're watching "Screw It" on SuppleWine. I'm your host Mike Supple.

This past week I took part in a lunch with David Powell, the chief wine maker and managing director of Torbreck, a winery based out of Australia that is known for their high-quality, high-end, somewhat expensive Shiraz-based wines. Not all of their wines are as high-priced, but none of them are particularly inexpensive. I would like to point out that I've tried all of their wines from several different vintages, and I do find that they tend to over deliver. If you're looking at one of the wines from Torbreck, and you're looking at the price tag and it's in your budget, you're generally going to get more bang for your buck than with many other wineries. That being said, this was a great lunch and we had a fantastic line-up of wines.

I did bring my video camera to take some footage of David talking about his wines. The camera's a little bit shaky - you're going to have to excuse that, as we did have a lot of wine during the lunch - but David made some very interesting points about his style of wine, the Australian style of wine making, why they call their wines Shiraz whereas the French call theirs Syrah - it's the same grape but they generally have very stylistically different characteristics. He also talks about the other wines that he makes - Grenache wines and blends - what types of wines he likes to drink, and where his wines fit in the scheme of the global marketplace. I found it interesting and wanted to share these few points with you, so enjoy.

David Powell from Torbreck:

Syrah has a completely different tannin profile. The tannins are sootier, more powery sort of tannins. In Shiraz the tannins are softer, rounder and richer. I think the aromatics of the wine are quite different. The wines that I consider to be more Syrah may be a bit more reductive and all that sort of stuff, where Shiraz is much more voluptuous, much more open and aromatic, if that makes any sense. I'm talking about in the early stages [young wines]. You can argue that Shiraz won't age as well as wines made in the style of Syrah. When I'm talking about Syrah, I'm basically talking about wines made in a cooler climate. You get some of the cooler climate areas in Australia and that's where I see those styles of wine being made, compared to the stuff being made in the warmer climates like Barossa and McLaren Vale.

I make no bones about the fact that I make fairly big, rich, full-bodied wines, because that's what the Barossa does - it's a warm Mediterranean-style climate. Generally red clay over limestone - and obviously different variations of that. So I make wines that have a sense of place. But it's interesting too, because there's been a lot of things that have happened and I've actually made myself pretty unpopular in Australia because I've been pretty vocal about Australia in generally hasn't really been putting its best foot forward. We're certainly dominated by some bigger companies who are much more interested in commercial production than in making fine wine.

Torbreck is, I make no bones about the fact that yes, it's in the Barossa, and yet it's in Australia, but I didn't create Torbreck to be another Barossa winery. I made it so it can stand on its own with some of the greatest wines in the world. A lot of people think that's pretty arrogant of me to say, but when you think about the fact that we work with some of the rarest and oldest raw material, why shouldn't we be? ...at home from the local press for the prices I charge for my wines, but we make world class wines and we charge world class prices. In fact I think if you put RunRig up against all the great Syrah-based wines of the world, it's still a bargain. It's actually not an expensive bottle of wine if you look at some of the vineyards from Guigal and Chapoutier. Manford Krankle is a great mate of mine, Manford's wines are expensive. I don't think RunRig's and expensive bottle of wine. In its category I think it's pretty cheap. When I can get away with charging more for it I will.

Another think about Torbreck too is we make two styles of wines - two extremes of wines. Shiraz is what we're best known for - in Australia in general and in the Barossa in particularly - but the wines I like the most, the wines I like to make the most are Grenache-based wines, more Southern Rhone styles. First of all, making good Shiraz is actually not that hard. You can find great Shiraz-based wines pretty much anywhere in the world. It's an incredibly versatile variety - cool climate, warmer climate, hot climate. Shiraz you can even get old vineyards, young vineyards. Even high-yielding stuff can still make good quaffable wine. There are a lot of other varieties that don't do that. Grenache is a lot harder to make good Grenache-based wines. You really do have to have old vineyards. If you work with younger ones you have you work really hard to keep the yields down. Grenache, I would say, is like cool climate Pinot Noir. It oxidizes really easily, you've got to be careful with your acid levels, you've got to be careful with your pH and all that stuff. It's a lot harder and a lot more finicky to work with than Shiraz.

The other thing of course is every wine maker will tell people his wines are good with food. The fact is that a lot of wine doesn't go with food, particularly from the New World. The reason I like Grenache-based wines is because they're more of a mid-palate wine. They're a lot more versatile with food. I think Grenache-based wines work a lot better with what we're eating now. In a restaurant normally I drink Grenache-based wines from wherever - Spain, France, Australia, California - or Pinot Noir. Those are the wines I'll actually order. When I'm finished I don't mind having a bit of Sherry. But I don't want a big Bordeaux, or Napa Cabernet or big Australian Shiraz in general when I'm actually sitting down. At home I never open a bottle of that sort of stuff. I always have a glass of wine when I'm eating - I'm 125 kilos, so I can say I've had a lot of practice!